Xeryon Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Continuation of post spun rod bearing thread but there was no point in continuing as that topic was finished. Hopefully this will be a fully custom build that I have done as much work myself as humanly possible. This thread will hopefully showcase my work in progress. So now I have several heads, 2 y8 heads and a z6 head. In the next few weeks I want to start doing some detailed work to them and I would like to do the work myself. I plan on practicing on one of the y8 heads, particularily the one I suspect is already warped as it came from a motor with a blown head gasket. I should have a sceond z6 head soon too, so I will have a spare if I ruin the first one. Some of the work to be done will obviously require more advanced machines then what I can do in my garage. I have already spent many hours searching the general web for information on what work I can do at home and what I need to take to a shop. I would like some info from anyone who has experience in this matter. With home tools what work can I do? Can someone provide their own links to sites with information about it?I really want to do as much of the work myself as I can. I may have a slightly reduced performance because I will not be experienced, but the joy from doing it myself outweighs the loss. Can I do P&P, 3 angle or 5 angle valve job from home?. I have seen in several places that 3 is best for boosted applications and 5 best for NA. Here are the best pages for information I have found myself: D-series forum head discussion Good discussion on work done to an ls head - good for theories and methods turbo d headwork with lots of pictures Anticipated end setup: This is a theoretical setup by cranny. I'll gladly be the guniea pig as I have not much else to do. If it is successful I will definately have one of the most unique setups out there. D16Z6 head D16Y8 Block D17A2 Crank and Oil Pump D15B7 Pistons and Rods Complete rebuild on the lower end, new rings, seals gaskets and so on. New rod bolts. Just going to have the block and crank checked out and cleaned at the local shop. Unless someone tells me I need to do otherwise. Rods need to have some work done to them as they apparently will not fit the crank correctly without some machining. Anyone care to add something to that to clarify? Please keeps posts to informative and useful. I'm here to learn and build, not argue. If I wanted an argument I would tell my wife what I am doing to the car.:- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrorocketeer Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Can I do P&P, 3 angle or 5 angle valve job from home?. I have seen in several places that 3 is best for boosted applications and 5 best for NA. porting is best left to those who know what they are doing. yeah you can do it, but it won't flow nearly as well as one done professionally. polishing you can do. 3 angle valve job.... haha put a valve in your drill press, and use a flap disc on your angle grinder. better yet....don't do that either boost prefers either one, doesn't matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SolLesHonda Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 The setup (on paper) sounds good. Seeing it in action is the key. It won't make much peak power, but should have a decent torque curve. My guess is you'll be shifting at about 6500. Better get a complimenting cam and transmission to get any power. R/S ratio is close to the Z6, and the P2D looks good too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xeryon Posted February 2, 2007 Author Share Posted February 2, 2007 The setup (on paper) sounds good. Seeing it in action is the key. It won't make much peak power, but should have a decent torque curve. My guess is you'll be shifting at about 6500. Better get a complimenting cam and transmission to get any power. R/S ratio is close to the Z6, and the P2D looks good too. R/S ratio? and P2D I know what P2D is, but how do I find these numbers and calculations you and others use. I would like to know more about the actual specs and math behind calculating compression and stoke and so on. I am not a novice with a wrench, but I am new to internals and engine building. I would like to learn as much about it as I can from you. Peak power isn't really the goal. Decent power for a street car without boost is. I figure a turbo or an sc definately requires more capital and generally requires more maintenance. I want to put it together and be able to drive it and beat on it on occasion without worrying too much about breaking it. If this goes well I may try to build a higher power boosted car in the future. I could just buy another motor and drop it in, but where is the fun in that? I would rather build something myself and have fun with it then just go out and buy power-in-a-can. I am missing some parts for the block assembly, so lets start with the head. For this kind of setup how much work is really going to be needed to the head? With anything there is always a "price point" where you get the most bang for your buck. Since I won't be putting out huge power, will I see a vast improvement if I do a complete performance head build? Or will just going with a p&p, or p&p and a valve job do what I need? KMS Is this the path I should be taking? Am I on the right track? They offer a complete valve train kit, as well as quite a few machining services. Am I far better off sending it to them. Will the complete kit be needed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EH6TunerDaniel Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Thats a high CR for boost. www.zealautowerks.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xeryon Posted February 2, 2007 Author Share Posted February 2, 2007 Boost? The whole build is based on N/A. Don't want to mess with boost. That link is pretty cool. I could spend half a day playing on that. I already see a problem, or maybe I am just missing something with the calc. If I input all the info I only end up with a cr of about 9.26:1. I thougt this assembly should put me closer to 11:1 maybe 12 Hrmm.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe W Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Good luck wth your build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cranny Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 it does X , D16 block D17 crank and pump D15 rods D15B7 pistons Z6 head and gasket. 11.25:1 CR , R/S ratio of 1.42. , and PtD of .004 which is fine. Z6 head is meant to run .000 PtD. if you bore it out some , run some oversized pistons , you could get to 12:1 no prolem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SolLesHonda Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Get good headwork. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xeryon Posted February 2, 2007 Author Share Posted February 2, 2007 it does X , D16 block D17 crank and pump D15 rods D15B7 pistons Z6 head and gasket. 11.25:1 CR , R/S ratio of 1.42. , and PtD of .004 which is fine. Z6 head is meant to run .000 PtD. if you bore it out some , run some oversized pistons , you could get to 12:1 no prolem. I see now. I clicked the wrong radio button and had a zc head and not a z6. Looks better now. Less machine work is good. Money isn't a huge issue, but no point in spending more then I need to for this preliminary build. I'm glad I'm starting to get somewhere with this. It's getting me a bit exited and I'm getting off my butt and getting more work done to pay for it instead of playing games all day :- As for headwork, woudl you think I would be better sourcing it out to someone who specializes online like the KMS link above or finding a local performance shop? What are the thoughts on 3angle or 5angle? Are either of them necissary in a build of this level or would a p&p be sufficient? Will any extra milling or decking be necissary to the head? Pardon me if I am asking about the wrong things. Headwork is new to me and I want to get this out so that I can get the work started as soon as I can. Will I need to completely rebuild the head with oe parts or go performance, or should I be messing with this as all Please, will someone hold me and tell me it will be alright?:huggles: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrorocketeer Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 get someone that has ported your heads before to do it. don't just let any old shop do it. 3 angle valve job is sufficient, 5 is way overkill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xeryon Posted February 2, 2007 Author Share Posted February 2, 2007 get someone that has ported your heads before to do it. don't just let any old shop do it. 3 angle valve job is sufficient, 5 is way overkill. At what point would 5 not be overkill? For referance. For the three, would the standard 30/45/60 be sufficient or would something more or less aggressive be in order? If you haven't noticed yet this will practically be the democratic engine build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrorocketeer Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 all out race engine, and even then i would say no. it just costs more $$$ and isn't worth it IMHO. spend your money on the porting. the standard 3 angle is fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cranny Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 agreed. if i were you , id research the hell out of manuals and internet , find all measurements of all the pieces your using , and make sure everything is compatible. like are B7 rods too narrow for the crank , so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..SSR.. Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 5 angle doesn't do anything the 3 does. And 3 does things the 5 angle doesn't. Don't do the headwork yourself. RM for headwork and valve train. Why the hell cranny is recommending a shorter rod, I don't know. D17 (GX) pistons and D17 rods. D15 rods BE is too small for a D17 crank. Bore them to the correct size and they are now very weak. With the GX pistons you'll have 11.99:1 CR. You also won't have to dremel the valve reliefs on the D15 pistons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EH6TunerDaniel Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 Boost? The whole build is based on N/A. Don't want to mess with boost. Duh, Im a frackin retard. 5 angle doesn't do anything the 3 does. And 3 does things the 5 angle doesn't. You kinda repeated yourself there, lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrorocketeer Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 Why the hell cranny is recommending a shorter rod, I don't know. douche....he said NARROWER... not shorter. as in the journal on the crank it too wide for the con rod he is using..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kegger Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 Why it seems you never learned to read, I don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xeryon Posted February 3, 2007 Author Share Posted February 3, 2007 5 angle doesn't do anything the 3 does. And 3 does things the 5 angle doesn't. Don't do the headwork yourself. RM for headwork and valve train. Why the hell cranny is recommending a shorter rod, I don't know. D17 (GX) pistons and D17 rods. D15 rods BE is too small for a D17 crank. Bore them to the correct size and they are now very weak. With the GX pistons you'll have 11.99:1 CR. You also won't have to dremel the valve reliefs on the D15 pistons. Yeah, I guess I'll just send the headwork out. Would you recommend just having the machining done, or having the full rebuild and all the parts that go with it done by the same people? If I replace the guides and valves and so on can it be done myself, or just skip it and have the shop do it? If I enter in your information to the zealautowerks calc I cannot find a combination that nets 11:99:1. But as I discovered earlier I tend to miss things that are right in front of my face. I come up with an 11.88:1. Would that be approaching the limits of pump gas? Be nice is this ran on 89/90 and not 92/93+ douche....he said NARROWER... not shorter. as in the journal on the crank it too wide for the con rod he is using..... Why would a connecting rod that is too narrow have a negative impact on the setup? I know what the rod is supposed to do, but until I tear one of these blocks apart the rest of the way I have never actually seen one myself so I am having a hard time picturing what the problem would be. If I wanted an argument I would tell my wife what I am doing to the car.:- Chill out. It's my thread and there will be no acting like petulant teenagers. I'm too old to spend my time reading useless internet argument threads. I appreciate your input Pyro, but keep it entirely constructive please. The last thing I want to do is have this thread locked for any reason. I have already learned more about engines, and found out about things that I need to learn more about in the last few hours then I have in the last couple months. I'm trying to be a quiet sponge while these guys discuss some of these things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kegger Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 Sometimes the rod journals aren't big enough to fit around certain crankshafts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xeryon Posted February 3, 2007 Author Share Posted February 3, 2007 rod journal is what? A funny thought occured to me just now. I am paying for this build in used laptops I am selling on eBay. When I am done I wonder what the laptop value of the car will be? i.e. one 95dx sedan with custom d16 build = ### number of crap laptops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kegger Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 The big end bore part. Edit: How much are you sellin the laptops for on average? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xeryon Posted February 3, 2007 Author Share Posted February 3, 2007 Depends on the laptop, from $10 to $200. Average price is probably $50-60 for a scratch and dent PIII 600. Easy money since all I do is turn them on to see if they work and get the specs. Takes about 10 mins to prep one. None of them are complete, all are missing tons of parts and only good for parts to fix others or rebuilding. So far I have sold over 200 notebooks in the last 12 months. Right now I have about 75 sitting in my workshop. Until a couple days ago I have been too lazy to work on them and haven't sold one in 3-4 months. With this build I have motivation to sell again. cranny did note that the rods would need to be machined to fit the slightly larger d17 crank, and ssr responded with his idea too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kegger Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 Yeah but if machine them to fit they will lose a lot of strength Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xeryon Posted February 3, 2007 Author Share Posted February 3, 2007 The real question is if this setup would put out enough power to warrant that as a concern. I haven't done any research myself, but anyone have a guess as to the amount you would need to take off for it to fit? I would think that it cannot be that much actually? I have a set of pistons and rods from the d17a2, I know the rods would match ssr suggestion, but I am unsure of the pistons as I do not know the diff from PLR-A0 and PMS-A00 Need a link for RM. Searching for rocket motorsports web site is neigh impossible as too many forums use that word and screw the google curve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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