les.delancy Posted January 2, 2007 Share Posted January 2, 2007 There has to be some formulas for figuring some of this stuff out, some kind of mathematicl equations! Injector size with specific boost pressure and throttle body size, what fuel pressure to run, ect... Any body know a web site with this kind of stuff? I'm not trying to get anybody to tell me how to build my engine, I just need the info to figure it out for myself. This is my first MP EFI build, and my first turbo build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben. Posted January 2, 2007 Share Posted January 2, 2007 Dude now you're trying too hard lol Just get it built and work it out for yourself. Don't rely on some mathematical crap to determine whether or not your motor is gonna' handle it. ANYTHING can go wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EH6TunerDaniel Posted January 2, 2007 Share Posted January 2, 2007 Not exactly what you are looking for, but check this out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
les.delancy Posted January 2, 2007 Author Share Posted January 2, 2007 That page will come in handy, thanks. But, not exactly what I'm looking for. I'm not talking about if the engine will handle it. I just want to properly match components. There has to be a way to properly match the turbo to the cam proflie, throttle body size, ect... Similarly, these same factors among others will dictate the appropriate size injectors and amount of fuel pressure. I know I want to use the Turbonetics ceramic ball bearing T3/T4 hybrid turbo, but there are quite a few different models to choose from. They have a selection chart on their site, but it hasn't been updated since they began producing these hybrids. And then I still need to figure out what size injectors to buy and how much fuel pressure to run. I believe the injectors themselves will have an optimum operating pressure. But, won't running too big of an injector hurt performance? I know that when building performance carburated engines it is very important to properly match your carb, cam, intake manifold, and exhaust system. Maybe with EFI, the computer can be used to compensate for some minor errors in component matching, I don't know. I just want to get the most performance out of whatever setup I use. In my experience it definatley pays off big time to do your homework and properly design your engine before you build it! Thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrorocketeer Posted January 2, 2007 Share Posted January 2, 2007 doing your homework saves money too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
les.delancy Posted January 2, 2007 Author Share Posted January 2, 2007 Amen to that brother... preaching to the chior! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cranny Posted January 2, 2007 Share Posted January 2, 2007 heres how it works. your not the first one to turbo a honda , lol. so its well known what turbo size will work best with your app. when it comes to fuel , the important thing is to have enough. so making sure the injectors have the output needed is essential. you dont buy injectors to match what your doing. you get ones big enough. than once hardware is all installed and you get it tuned. all these measurements your talking about will be done by air/fuel ratios , and timing maps. you want a turbo approx - .48-.42. cold/hot rating. 750 cc injectors are the way to go. better to have bigger injectors spraying a 70% duty cycle at 8000 rpm in VTEC , than smaller ones spraying at 98% duty. see what im saying? as far as cams go , its the same , you get whatever stage you think is gonna match the power your looking to gain. youl need a bigger fuel pump. fuel pressure doesnt matter really. most people with boost i know of , dont even run an adjustable fuel pressure reg. its simply not necessary with tuning and aftermarket injectors and pump. higher volume rail couldnt hurt you. stage 2 cams would be best for you im thinking with a boost grind. and once the engine is built and running and ready for tuning. they will either street or dyno tune the car. they will plug a datalogger into your ecu (some systems like hondata and others have built in datalogging), run it through its rpm range and see what the air fuel ratio is for idle , and all the way through the power band. for every few lbs of boost , they will retard the timing a bit. and they will make sure your air/fuel ratio is as steady as it can get at the desired range(11:1-14:1 approx). and thats it dude for the most part. enough to help you understand whats involved. i hope this is what you were looking for. heres how it works. your not the first one to turbo a honda , lol. so its well known what turbo size will work best with your app. when it comes to fuel , the important thing is to have enough. so making sure the injectors have the output needed is essential. you dont buy injectors to match what your doing. you get ones big enough. than once hardware is all installed and you get it tuned. all these measurements your talking about will be done by air/fuel ratios , and timing maps. you want a turbo approx - .48-.42. cold/hot rating. 750 cc injectors are the way to go. better to have bigger injectors spraying a 70% duty cycle at 8000 rpm in VTEC , than smaller ones spraying at 98% duty. see what im saying? as far as cams go , its the same , you get whatever stage you think is gonna match the power your looking to gain. youl need a bigger fuel pump. fuel pressure doesnt matter really. most people with boost i know of , dont even run an adjustable fuel pressure reg. its simply not necessary with tuning and aftermarket injectors and pump. higher volume rail couldnt hurt you. stage 2 cams would be best for you im thinking with a boost grind. and once the engine is built and running and ready for tuning. they will either street or dyno tune the car. they will plug a datalogger into your ecu (some systems like hondata and others have built in datalogging), run it through its rpm range and see what the air fuel ratio is for idle , and all the way through the power band. the datalogger will record what the car did through the run. for every few lbs of boost , they will retard the timing a bit. and they will make sure your air/fuel ratio is as steady as it can get at the desired range(11:1-14:1 approx). and thats it dude for the most part. enough to help you understand whats involved. i hope this is what you were looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrorocketeer Posted January 2, 2007 Share Posted January 2, 2007 halfway through cranny's post i was like....this sounds familiar.... lol, then i realized that its posted twice. I see what cranny is saying, but there is a foumula to find that stuff out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrorocketeer Posted January 2, 2007 Share Posted January 2, 2007 Sorry about the double post, but I found what you were looking for! Injector Sizing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blown330 Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 Just get it built and work it out for yourself. Don't rely on some mathematical crap to determine whether or not your motor is gonna' handle it. ANYTHING can go wrong. Note to self: Never buy ANY engine from this guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..SSR.. Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 RC Engineering has an injector formula on their website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
les.delancy Posted January 3, 2007 Author Share Posted January 3, 2007 Cool, now I've got all of my parts picked out except for the pistons. Still not settled in on exactly what static compression ratio I should use. Any suggestions? Everyone on here has helped a lot, THANKS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrorocketeer Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 RC Engineering has an injector formula on their website. note my link above..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
les.delancy Posted January 3, 2007 Author Share Posted January 3, 2007 I know I'm probably missing something, but I don't see anything about compression ratios on turbo charged vehicles there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatch92 Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 8.5:1 or around that would be good. Edit: for a high boost engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cranny Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 one thing weve never touched yet oddly enough , lol , what kind of engine dude are you talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
les.delancy Posted January 3, 2007 Author Share Posted January 3, 2007 OK, I'll tell you the engine and the parts I have picked out. And them I'm sure someone will find something wrong with it. '95 Del Sol VTEC w/B16A3 Engine plan so far: bore and sleeve block to 87mm bore Crower 2.12L balanced rotating assembly with 89mm stroke Crower stage 2 turbo cams Crower 84161 valve springs and retainers Crowe adjustable cam gear Crower stock diameter stainless steel valves cylinder head CNC ported and polished by Skunk2 Skunk2 pro series intake Hondata Heatshield intake gasket Skunk2 70mm throttle body MSD Pro Billet distributor MSD Blaster SC coil MSD capacitive discharge coil driver w/Honda ECU adapter harness Turbonetics T04E-60 stage 3 (.63 A/R) turbo charger Hondata s300 ECU mod with boost control GM part# 1997152 boost control solenoid NGK spark plugs and wires parts I will use but haven't specifically picked out yet: high performance in tank fuel pump large bore fuel rail cartridge type in line fuel filter replace all fuel lines with 1/2" cold air intake turbo manifold to retain AC and PS 3" down pipe high flow catalytic converter 3" stainless exhaust largest intercooler I can squeeze into the front of the car approx. 72 lb/hr fuel injectors adjustable fuel pressure regulator stage 2 clutch LSD in stock tranny I also plan to use a high performance radiator, fan/shroud assembly,thermostat and water pump. Is that an information overload? I'm sure I left something out! I still need to decide on a compression ratio so that I can choose pistons to finish selecting my internal engine components. Let me know if you think I screwed up somewhere! THANKS!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cranny Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 cant happen dude. 87 mm bore way too big. also not needed. aftermarket crank not needed. it can take 1000 horsepower. cams/springs/retainers good. adjustable cam gear also not needed but go ahead. new stainless valves good. if your going boost , leave the head unported imo. intake manny is good , but with boost also not needed really. hondata intake gasket good idea. keep the heat out of the intake. throttle body not needed but go ahead. aftermarket dizzy is ok but still not needed. coil is good idea. turbo is too big imo. go with hondata s200 w/boost. 255 lph walpro pump. AEM fuel rail stock fuel filter is fine. 1/2 inch fuel lines? lol , no man cold air intake is cool , but if your going turbo , your gonna have a hell of a time running it. keep the P/S , ditch the A/C. 3" downpipe is needed. or whatever outlet your turbo has on the hot size , continue it to mid pipe. same as exhaust , keep it same size as turbo outlet. go 3" if you wish. get rid of the cat altogether. mid size fmic. you want 750cc injectors. get them its worth it. adjustable FPR not needed. stage 2 clutch good idea. OBX has a good cheap lsd diff out there. get wiseco 9.4:1 pistons. eagle H beam piston rods. ACL rod bearings. ARP rod bolts , and head studs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
les.delancy Posted January 3, 2007 Author Share Posted January 3, 2007 Ok, thanks for the advise! So 9.4:1 static compression and I won't blow the head off? Cool! And the stock crank is really that good? I was planning on all ARP bolts/studs. Are you advising against Crower rods/bearings or do you just suggest Eagle/ACL because they are what you prefer? I have always been partial to JE pistons, is this a bad idea? And, why do you laugh at the idea of larger fuel lines? Larger fuel lines serve two purposes: ensure flow of proper fuel volume, and supply fuel to the engine at a lower temperature. Don't take me wrong, I'm not trying to be argumentative. If there is a reason you say not to do this, tell me what it is. Again, I really appreciate all of the advice from everyone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..SSR.. Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 OK, I'll tell you the engine and the parts I have picked out. And them I'm sure someone will find something wrong with it.'95 Del Sol VTEC w/B16A3 Engine plan so far: bore and sleeve block to 87mm bore Resleeved and boost don't go bigger than 84mm Crower 2.12L balanced rotating assembly with 89mm stroke Keep stock B16 crank if you want it to last Crower stage 2 turbo cams Other brand makes more power and is cheaper Crower 84161 valve springs and retainers Other brand can support higher RPM and is cheaper Crowe adjustable cam gear Golden Eagle Crower stock diameter stainless steel valves Stock valves cylinder head CNC ported and polished by Skunk2 Have it hand ported(other brand is cheaper), Skunk2 doesn't do turbo stuff Skunk2 pro series intake Edelbrock is better for boost. S2 doesn't do turbo stuff Hondata Heatshield intake gasket Skunk2 70mm throttle body MSD Pro Billet distributor MSD Blaster SC coil MSD capacitive discharge coil driver w/Honda ECU adapter harness Turbonetics T04E-60 stage 3 (.63 A/R) turbo charger Better brands out there. Also this turbo is very inefficient Hondata s300 ECU mod with boost control GM part# 1997152 boost control solenoid NGK spark plugs and wires parts I will use but haven't specifically picked out yet: high performance in tank fuel pump large bore fuel rail cartridge type in line fuel filter replace all fuel lines with 1/2" cold air intake Not with a turbo turbo manifold to retain AC and PS 3" down pipe high flow catalytic converter 3" stainless exhaust largest intercooler I can squeeze into the front of the car Size it right approx. 72 lb/hr fuel injectors adjustable fuel pressure regulator stage 2 clutch You'll need more than that LSD in stock tranny I also plan to use a high performance radiator, fan/shroud assembly,thermostat and water pump. Is that an information overload? I'm sure I left something out! I still need to decide on a compression ratio so that I can choose pistons to finish selecting my internal engine components. Let me know if you think I screwed up somewhere! THANKS!! And 9:1 CR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben. Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 Note to self: Never buy ANY engine from this guy. Riiiight, douche. Right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
les.delancy Posted January 5, 2007 Author Share Posted January 5, 2007 You guys lost me! I'm not sure if you're talking smack about each other or me. Either way it's irrelevant, it's ammusing. It sounds like there is agreement that aroud 9:1 static compression ratio is good, so I'll go witn that. As far as the comment about running an 87mm bore, any one else want to chime in? I have found three companies that offer sleeving rervices using ductlie iron sleeves for this block with an 87mm bore. They all say no problem, it will work like a champ! Does any one have an actual reason why they wouldn't do this? I believe I have planned my engine build and appreciate all of the advice. I plan to hang around on here. If any of you have geeral question about automotive tech or N/A stuff, I might very well be able to help. I just don't have much experience on high performance Honda specific or turbo tech. So, unless any one has a good reason not to go wih the 87mm sleeves, that's the plan! Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cranny Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 well , its definitely not the norm dude. the thinner the walls are in between the cylinders , the more the heat will effect them. i shouldnt have said its impossible. you run that bore with boost , your gonna have prolems in the long run , thats my opinion. 9.1:1 is too low SSR , unless hes gonna be running higher boost levels. if your staying in the 8-10lb range , 9.4:1 is perfect. ive seen with my own eyes , and this is only one example , an LSVTEC (B16 head)setup running 9.4:1 , with 8 lbs , making 320 at the wheels. hard to argue with that. same dude , his first setup , same pistons , in a B16A , running 8 lbs , he put down 250 at the wheels. and it was good for more too , he didnt push either setup. he never does. you run any lower than 9.4:1 imo , your gonna kill what these engines already dont have for bottom end. les , you know boring them out does nearly nothing man. stock B16A3-10.2:1 CR. now same setup , but sleeved for 84mm bore(all id reccommend) , is good for 10.8:1. and that ould cost you about 1500 bucks. 1500 dollars for .4 of a point gain. seem worth it to you now? its simply not. your engine though dude , try er out. not to mention , boring the engine out to run boost , is like an oxymoron. why would you mod an engine for higher compression just to put pistons in it to lower it again? lol. anyways , to each thier own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..SSR.. Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 cranny, I was going to try to be nice, but just shut up. Look at the turbo he wants to run, you think he wants low boost? If he is going to use a smaller turbo, then I'd do 10.5:1. Otherwise, 9:1. Funny how ALL boosted Hondas with 9:1 seem to love it. Boring is not for compression, it is for displacement and headflow. You can't run 87mm period. SOME all motor drag cars do. Most you can run with boost is 85mm. But once it's time for a rebuild, you'll have to resleeve it again. If you think this is coming from nobody, I built a B18C5 that I had resleeved, 84mm bore, and 9:1 CR. Only made 50xwhp on pump gas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
les.delancy Posted January 5, 2007 Author Share Posted January 5, 2007 OK, that makes more sense. The companies that listed an 87mm bore and sited block strength didn't mention boost at all. So, 85mm max it is. And SSR was right. You don't bore a block to raise compression. that is just a side effect (and it is only a slight increase anyway). When you bore and stroke an engine you are looking for more displacement, plain and simple. Go ahead and tell me that more engine displacement doesn't equal more available power, I need a good laugh! Do identical mods to two engines of different displacement and you're gona get more power from the larger engine (within reason). If all you wanted to do was raise compression, ou would just change your pistons. And SSR is again right, I'm not planning on low boost. I was planning on hovering around the 15psi range. Cranny, don't get me wrong; I'm not saying you don't know your stuff, or I wouldn't keep listening to your advise. And I do appreciate the help. But I'm not some moron who will just accept what anybody says and say "OK". I do know cars and engines quite well, as I have built quite a few in my time. It is in fact how I make a living. I'm just not familiar with Honda specifics. I don't know how thick the cylinder walls are, and how much bore is too much. If some one tells me something won't work for a reason, then it's all good. When they just mock me and say "ha,ha, no man, can't happen" I will try to verify and find out why they think so. And to respond to a comment in an earlier post about a performance intake not doing any good on a boosted engine, I call BS! With a turbo you may be forcing the air in under pressure, but that doesn't mean that giving it a better flowing pathway won't help. Pressure does not equal volume, all of the pressure in the world can't assure the optimum volume of air flow if you have a restrictive intake. It's like tryig to fill a 44" truck tire with a 1/4" air hose; no matter what pressure you have available in your air tank, it's going to take forever due to the lack of air volume that can squeeze through that little hose. I hope I'm not pi***ng every one off so that I don't get anymore advice. I do not mean to be little anyone or their knowledge. I will still need some pointers and advice, and do appreciate all that I have gotten to this point. I say again, I have never modified an MPFI engine or a turbo charged gas engine. Actually, the smallest engine I have worked on in the past four years has been a C7 Cat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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