Secksi Posted July 2, 2006 Share Posted July 2, 2006 I replaced the head gasket on my 91 civic 1.5, This is my fourth head gasket repair so im familiar with doing them and up to this point never had a problem, however this time everything seemed to go smooth as it had before, i had the head pressure tested and shaved, and all the seals have been replaced everything went together without a hitch untill i tried to start the car, i have no compression, at least thats what it sounds like, i turn the motor over and it doesnt lob like a normal car does when you try to start it it just seems to spin, i pulled the valve cover and timing belt cover off to make sure the bvelt didnt slip and everything turns fine theres just no compression. Can anyone tell me what i may have done wong? it turned over fine before i replaced the head gasket. Thanks in advance to anyone that can help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REDLINEperformance Posted July 2, 2006 Share Posted July 2, 2006 You shaved the same head down before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cranny Posted July 2, 2006 Share Posted July 2, 2006 sounds like your 180 off in your timing dude. id bet on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..SSR.. Posted July 2, 2006 Share Posted July 2, 2006 Whenever you take material off the head it throws your timing off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cranny Posted July 2, 2006 Share Posted July 2, 2006 ????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountaindewguy Posted July 2, 2006 Share Posted July 2, 2006 he means basically when you shave off some of the head, it messes with your timing. it makes sense. an engine's timing is set to how its originally came out of the factory, so if you shave some of the head down, your timing is changed slightly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrorocketeer Posted July 3, 2006 Share Posted July 3, 2006 a couple of thousandths off of your head isn't going to throw it off that much....come on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..SSR.. Posted July 3, 2006 Share Posted July 3, 2006 Yes it does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrorocketeer Posted July 3, 2006 Share Posted July 3, 2006 um.....explain yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..SSR.. Posted July 3, 2006 Share Posted July 3, 2006 Honda t-belts have x amoutn of teeth, each tooth = a certain degree of timing. Take .010 off the head and the timing is thrown off enough to affect the operation of the engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrorocketeer Posted July 3, 2006 Share Posted July 3, 2006 um....i don't think so. that will just make the belt a little looser, you aren't throwing off any timing. the "gear" running the cam is still going to spin at the same ratio as the crank "gear" as with a non machined head. It doesn't matter how big the belt running between the two gears is (ie how loose or tight from variances between shaved head vs stock due to it being closer to the crank) the gears will still turn at the same ratio. hard to explain, but it doesn't matter how much is taken off, your timing still won't be affected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cranny Posted July 3, 2006 Share Posted July 3, 2006 i dont think so either , but in any matter. ive built a D16A6 like 12 years ago(my first honda engine build). an 88 CRX Si. we shaved .008(8 thousenths) off the head and .010(10 thousenths) off the block. worked real good too with timing set how its supposed to be. but i aint gonna argue with him again if thats what he thinks than power to him. and for the record there SSR its not near enough to be off a tooth , maybe not even a few degrees on the dizzy(which you will be anytime you take off a timing belt anyways), thats it. timing light on it and done. if you ever have your dizzy off without marking where it was perfectly needs a timing light on it afterwards or your hurting your performance big time. and another for the record , when you run a timing light on these cars , you must cross that same 2 pin connector under your dash for reading codes , when using timing light , otherwise your ECU is still trying to correct your timing and it throws it off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..SSR.. Posted July 3, 2006 Share Posted July 3, 2006 You're both wrong. It throws the timing off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cranny Posted July 3, 2006 Share Posted July 3, 2006 obviously cause ive built them and it worked eh , lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..SSR.. Posted July 3, 2006 Share Posted July 3, 2006 Obviously because I've built them too and they didn't like a stock cam gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrorocketeer Posted July 3, 2006 Share Posted July 3, 2006 well first off before i can be 100% sure....before i need to know this......do honda's have an "idler pully" on their timing belt? Is it just one, or is it a "dual idler like" setup (one on each side)? edit: i just got done talking this over with my father (mechanic for 45+ years) said it can't be done because of meshing problems (both gears won't be at the timing marks, and have the belt slip right into the notches)(unless you get really lucky and your head was shaved enough to be able for the belt to slide right into the notches. So.....there would be a .5% chance of you shaving enough off of your head to have it go back exactly in time. I proposed that you would need a fixed, but adjustable "idler" gear, and another free moving idler gear in order for you to be able to put it back in perfect time. morale of the story....if you machine your head, get an adjustible cam gear...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..SSR.. Posted July 4, 2006 Share Posted July 4, 2006 What I said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cranny Posted July 4, 2006 Share Posted July 4, 2006 wrong , the distance between the cam gears stays the same. the distance between the cam gears and the crank timing gear mean nothing. the timing belts on hondas dont have an idler pyro , its a tensioner. its adjustable to take up the slack. and like i said before , the dizzy gives you enough adjustment . adjustable cam gears, or gear, not needed. like i said we planed off the head .008 and the block .010 and all together the difference in how the teeth lined up was so fukin minimal , you would hardly notice until you got a timing light on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrorocketeer Posted July 4, 2006 Share Posted July 4, 2006 the distance between the two gears means a lot.....if it is stock everything will slip right in, and your timing marks will work perfectally. if it is machined down the chances of it fitting into a slot on your belt, and still both gears be at their marks is more than likely not gonna happen. idler....tensioner.....generally the same thing in essance (slack adjusters)....anyway.... we aren't talking about ignition timing....this is cam timing we are refering to. that would throw off your ignition timing because thats ran off of the cam too. but adjusting the timing to where it shouldn't be isn't going to fix the problem of your valves opening or closing too soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SolLesHonda Posted July 4, 2006 Share Posted July 4, 2006 This is what I like to see. Real discussion. However, I am agreeing with Pyro on this one, and in one case, SSR. Cranny's sounds logical, but for some reason I don't think it's 100% correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJB98LX Posted July 4, 2006 Share Posted July 4, 2006 Secksi- Is the car backfiring at all? Do you guys think that the timing could be that far off from a slight shave to cause it to not fire at all like that? I can agree that it might throw off the timing, but the timing would have to be really f*cked to not run like that. I've seen timing way off and still run, just really sloppy. SolLes- +1 on the Real discussions. We need more of these! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrorocketeer Posted July 4, 2006 Share Posted July 4, 2006 Cranny's way (and mine at first) does seem to work out logically, and it does if it was like a "v" belt running your timing and not a belt with notches in it. the notches in the belt are what throws you off in this case. Thats what i was having trouble understanding to begin with. once again...we are talking about cam timing, not ignition. the ignition timing can be wayyyy off and still fire. cam timing can't be off by too much at all, else you won't be firing, and/or you'll be messing some stuff up....ie valves still open when the piston is comming up....thats a mess i wouldn't wanna clean up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cranny Posted July 4, 2006 Share Posted July 4, 2006 the distance between the two gears means a lot.....if it is stock everything will slip right in, and your timing marks will work perfectally. if it is machined down the chances of it fitting into a slot on your belt, and still both gears be at their marks is more than likely not gonna happen. idler....tensioner.....generally the same thing in essance (slack adjusters)....anyway.... we aren't talking about ignition timing....this is cam timing we are refering to. that would throw off your ignition timing because thats ran off of the cam too. but adjusting the timing to where it shouldn't be isn't going to fix the problem of your valves opening or closing too soon. the distance between the 2 gears as i said will remain the same , your not making your cams closer together , lol. as far as the distance between the crank and cam wheels it dont matter. as far as an idler pulley being a tensioner , no its not. an idler is just a dead pulley the belt rides on. example , say you had a mustang and wanted to get rid of A/C , well you remove the A/C , you bolt up an idler pulley where your A/C comprssor was for the belt to ride on. domestic trucks and cars with serpentine belts have tensioners as wel but not like hondas , they are free floating and spring loaded. our hondas are spring loaded but bolted tight after slack is taken out. youd have to be out more than a few teeth for pistons to ram valves. theres only a couple degrees in its 360 where that can happen. granted , getting adjustable cam gears is the easiest way to make sure its perfect but like ive said ive dealt with engines planed quite a bit on head and block and never had a prolem. your talking miniscule difference after taking a couple thousenths of an inch. all together we took 18 hundreths. .018. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrorocketeer Posted July 4, 2006 Share Posted July 4, 2006 that was my fault, i didn't say what i ment when i said "the distance between the two gears means a lot....." in reply to your comment about the cam gears, and later about the cam and crank gear. I meant to say the distance between the cam and crank....my bad. I know what an idler pulley is, I just didn't know if you had a tensioner pulley on your belt or not. (also I didn't know if they actually had a specific name for the one on your timing belt.) granted it is a slight change to the cam timing like you said, but not enough to not make your engine not run like ssr is basically saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Secksi Posted July 10, 2006 Author Share Posted July 10, 2006 Ok first for those that were trying to help thank you. You can all still argue about the head but i lined everything back up as far as the timing marks and it was fine My problems were caused from me replacing all the seals in the head and i took everything thing off the head to do so but when i put the head back on i forgot to adjust the valves. I adjusted them and POW the thing starts just fine, they were just stuck open. so again for those who tried thanks. Hopefully someone else can learn from my not thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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