dinsmoreracing Posted December 9, 2007 Author Share Posted December 9, 2007 well the reason we decided to use honda was because of its light wieght aluminum block and they make power i think im going to get the block and head get custom cams build my own tensioner and pulley system. i was hoping to find information on if it has been done (now i know it hasnt) so i will be the first i also was looking for info on what kind of parts you guys run to get the most out of the engine (ie. cranks, pistons, rods,) thatnks for the input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatch92 Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 skunk 2 springs/retainers, scat rods, scat crank, and je pistons well thats what i like to run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinsmoreracing Posted December 9, 2007 Author Share Posted December 9, 2007 thanks for the info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TS John Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 I would love to see how this project turns out. Sounds crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Matteu Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 I have no experience in your line of racing, but I can't get over the fact that with everything you will fabricate, you haven't considered a box with two gears and an oil pump. One gear on the flywheel and the second to the transmission. The flywheel will run one direction and the the other gear will go in the opposite direction, oil to cool and lubricate. I feel I am over-simplifying the situation, but I thought I would throw it out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinsmoreracing Posted December 10, 2007 Author Share Posted December 10, 2007 well you are thinking James, that would work but I am worried about the power loss through another gear train, a transmission will rob 15% so what would this box rob plus the extra weight. There is a guy in florida that I have to call tommorow that has done this, run the engine backwards in a buggy, differant cams, dry sump and crank trigger ignition I will see what he did for timing belt. he built it and ran it this season we will see Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrorocketeer Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 well you are thinking James, that would work but I am worried about the power loss through another gear train, a transmission will rob 15% so what would this box rob plus the extra weight. if your running high angle cv's your losing even more power through the drive train. There was someone on either the samba, or shoptalkforums that reported almost a 30% loss of power from his engine to the wheels in his offroad rail, or buggy. cranny, doesn't your k-series engine turn clockwise? (the "correct" way) that would produce more power and torque across the board, and might cost just as much for the engine as it would do do all that custom stuff that might not be that reliable. (especially when torture tested in offroad racing) I don't know exactly what your racing class has for limitations though. (what exactly do you run? is it a buggy class on a dirt track for trucks and stuff?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinsmoreracing Posted December 10, 2007 Author Share Posted December 10, 2007 we are running in a 1600cc air cooled class with the car posted but we are making the step to class 10 which is the unlimited super buggys (world series of offroad racing, in the northern states but the same as corr in california) the rule are we have to run a 1.6l 4 cylinder naturally asperated no turbos or superchargers single 44mm webber carb 28mm venturi. we wont have the power loss caused by the cv angles, because our axles ride hieght is around 5 degrees and only use 10-15 degree range when the car is running with the wheels on the ground, but when off jumps or really rough tracks the full suspension is used Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatch92 Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 so how are you gonna run a b16 air cooler? that thing will over heat real quick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinsmoreracing Posted December 11, 2007 Author Share Posted December 11, 2007 i explain better.. i am running in a 1600 cc restricted class where we have to run VW 1600cc beetle motors i am moving into an unlimited class where i can run liquid cooled or air cooled or any 1.6l 4 cylinder engine ever madeas long as i run gasoline which i use 110 octane (naturaly aspirated) ie no nitrous or alcohol and we cant run turbos... its a totaly different class thats why i am building this engine..the MR2 engine we were going to use is good but the honda can make for power with less weight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IVhorsemenmotorsports Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 It is a built special ratio 091 transaxles we us, they have different 1st 2nd main shafts, 3rd and 4th gears and various ratio ring and pinions , you cannot run the trans backwards as in a mid engine because the ring gear is not designed to take the shock load on the backside of the teeth nor will the gear teeth lubricate and cool properly running in reverse rotation as the cup of the tooth is designed to hold oil for hydrodynamic loading and the backside of the tooth will not do this. this has been tried by others and the premature wear and failure was bad.Mendenola transmissions can have the ring gear flipped and they will work but at $13,000.00 per trans for a new one I will try and avoid them for now. Web cam in California can grind the cams for reverse rotation I believe, but we were just checking to see if anyone has done this before. Revese rotation engine have been around since the early 60's they use revese rotation engines in boats all the time, the right engine will rotate clockwise and the left engine will rotate counterclockwise to balance the boat, all you have to do is have a cam ground that will allow this to happen by changing where the exh and intake cam timing occurs, they do it alot with sprint car engines so the car will turn left easier, not fighting the engine torque trying to twist the frame to the right. we will be running a dry sump oil system with and external pump. nice project you have there. You can can regring those cams to spin the motor the opposite way. Also correct on the disabling the vtec as the engine will only work in the high RPM's. saves you the weight in the valve train. hope the project goes well for you, seems fun. See if you can do fuel injection so you won't have stalling issues when your traveling up a dune. Carbs and not being level sucks. Monster trucks used to use carbs but when they would jump the cars the motor would stall cause the fuel would go to one side of the bowl. I think SDS makes a cheap fuel injection stand alone to get you buy, also electromotive has one that would also go for your ignition system with the crank trigger. hope my input helped Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrorocketeer Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 megasquirt is by far cheaper than sds for a standalone.... about $600 less for the ecu alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IVhorsemenmotorsports Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 you cant make the engine run backwards , lol , never heard anything so stupid in all my life to be quite frank. you need to be more openminded. Check out the Jotech scion. Kenny Tran got custom cams to make the engine spin counterclockwise so he could use the Xtrac tranny from his civic. Saved him a grip of money Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cranny Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 a timing chain engine sure , and even than , if the chain has a tensioner like the K engines will have to be changed. not a belt engine , no way. not without reconfiguring the entire timing belt end of the engine. if you need an engine that turns clockwise , get a K , lol. has nothing to do with being open minded , im just a realist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben. Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Not to mention, he's talking about a team that makes tons of money off of races LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IVhorsemenmotorsports Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 It is a built special ratio 091 transaxles we us, they have different 1st 2nd main shafts, 3rd and 4th gears and various ratio ring and pinions , you cannot run the trans backwards as in a mid engine because the ring gear is not designed to take the shock load on the backside of the teeth nor will the gear teeth lubricate and cool properly running in reverse rotation as the cup of the tooth is designed to hold oil for hydrodynamic loading and the backside of the tooth will not do this. this has been tried by others and the premature wear and failure was bad.Mendenola transmissions can have the ring gear flipped and they will work but at $13,000.00 per trans for a new one I will try and avoid them for now. Web cam in California can grind the cams for reverse rotation I believe, but we were just checking to see if anyone has done this before. Revese rotation engine have been around since the early 60's they use revese rotation engines in boats all the time, the right engine will rotate clockwise and the left engine will rotate counterclockwise to balance the boat, all you have to do is have a cam ground that will allow this to happen by changing where the exh and intake cam timing occurs, they do it alot with sprint car engines so the car will turn left easier, not fighting the engine torque trying to twist the frame to the right. we will be running a dry sump oil system with and external pump. cranny needs to be more openminded to creativity. It has been done before. Kenny Tran of Jotech in Texas did it to his Scion drag car. He made it spin the opposite way so he could use the race tranny from his civic. Web cams does the cams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TS John Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 I don't pretend to know about everything they're talking about in this thread, but let me get this straight. You're saying that Cranny needs to be more open minded because someone did something similar with a different engine? He already said that it could be done with a different engine. Plus, you're saying that someone used different cams as if that solves his objection when really his whole point had nothing to do with cams but with the timing belt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IVhorsemenmotorsports Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 I don't pretend to know about everything they're talking about in this thread, but let me get this straight. You're saying that Cranny needs to be more open minded because someone did something similar with a different engine? He already said that it could be done with a different engine. Plus, you're saying that someone used different cams as if that solves his objection when really his whole point had nothing to do with cams but with the timing belt. timing belt? I was refering to his comment of spinning the engine backwards was the dumbest idea he has heard. I mainly pointed out that it has been done before it certainly is not a dumb idea. Just like when hot rodders found out that by switching the firing order on the chevy on the 5 and 7 firing order you increased power. Ideas are everywhere and should not be considered dumb. I remember when I started people would laugh at me when I took my honda to the track. they would say 4 cylinders!!!!!! And then I would run similiar times as them. No idea can be too dumb. Some times when you have an idea you tend to forget the varibles, that's why we have this forum so other points of views can be expressed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TS John Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 I understand, I think you just neglected to read the whole thread, because cranny does say later that it's only really a stupid idea to use that particular engine when it has so many variables against it and there are others without those negative variables present (ex: the engine he used to have in his car). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinsmoreracing Posted December 12, 2007 Author Share Posted December 12, 2007 the other alternative to reverse rotating the b16a is to sleeve and destroke the k series so it has 1600cc displacement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Matteu Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 I thought the Fit comes with a K-series 1.5 liter engine. Someone please fact check that. If so, then would you forsee the same gains in stroking this motor? I could imagine a destroked K-series 2.0 liter motor could handle a significant amount of punishment, but I do not know this for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cranny Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 a destroked K built for either high comp pistons , or low comp and a ton of boost. you can torture low stroke engines for sure. look at the B16B , i love them engines. i dont want to generlize too much , but the less stroke , the less chance of bottom end failure and cylinder ovaling over time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prangy Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 This is such a hard thread to understand... so much to learn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatch92 Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 i agree prangy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IVhorsemenmotorsports Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 a destroked K built for either high comp pistons , or low comp and a ton of boost. you can torture low stroke engines for sure. look at the B16B , i love them engines. i dont want to generlize too much , but the less stroke , the less chance of bottom end failure and cylinder ovaling over time. k's are great, but if your going to de-stroke the crank have the shop machine the rod journals wider to accept h22 bearings as they are wider. K's have oiling issues and rod stretching problems. IPS makes makes some nice cams for those engines. Happy revving Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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