ussamah Posted December 4, 2007 Author Share Posted December 4, 2007 Hi guys, its me again, the noobiest of them all with even more questions 1) head shave and polish... isnt that basically reconditioning an engine?? Is it just getting rid of all the erosion and crap that accumulates and bringing back to smoothness again? When people ask what the power gains are with a head shave and polish, does that mean power gains to bring the engine back to how good it was when it was brand new, or does a shave and polish actually make the engine perform better than how it was as stock?? 2) How do i know which OBD i have? If you have a cable interface that allows you to connect your OBD to your home laptop, could you not tune your car yourself?? 3) whats a sump?? thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TS John Posted December 5, 2007 Share Posted December 5, 2007 1) It will restore it back to stock and better! Basically you're optimizing the flow in your head with some precision that was lacking when the head was mass-produced to make it all work better with your setup. It'll unlock the most gains if you have other stuff done to the engine too (port match IM and TB and whatnot). Well worth it if you're doing a build. 2) You can find out what OBD you are by reading the pinned thread about all the different honda engines, which should tell you. Or google that. 3) A sump pump is what moves oil around in your engine to make it not fuse up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cranny Posted December 5, 2007 Share Posted December 5, 2007 when they make a head , its cast in a mold. because of this , there are imperfections. little pieces that hag down in the runners , sharp edges in the bends , etc. when they mild port a head , they usually remove any imperfections in the runners , they port the head about 1 1/2" into each runner , they will polish the exhaust runners real smooth. they will only semi polish the intake runners. as a little roughness is needed. when i say rough , i mean not to the touch. they will port match the runner opening to match the intake manifold and gasket. thats it. when they shave a head , they actually remove a thin layer off the entire surface of the head that meets the block. this not only makes it true again(straight) , it also makes your combustion chambers a little smaller , bumping your compression up. your oil pan is a resevoir. the sump is what picks it up out of that resevoir. when your engine is running , your oil pump is sucking it up out of the pan , pushing it through your engines oiling system , which is your crank , mains and rod bearings journals , and the head. the oil continuously recirculates. after the oil leaves where the pump is pushing it , it flows through passages using gravity to fall back into the pan , to once again be sucked up. real high performance engines use dry sump setup. meaning the oil is no longer stored in a pan o the bottom of the engine. its stored in a seperate resevoir. and its fed to the pump through lines , oils the engine , and returns back to the res again. this is better cause the crank is not spinning in it , restricting it turning , and they can run higher oil pressure. tuned , your ecu or computer that runs your engine , is programmed to react a certain way , based on the readings it gets from your sensors. its constantly reading the sensors , it gets broken down into data , the ecu sees this data as values on a table(think of a times table). so many times a second , the ecu uses the data it collects , looks up on this table to see what its supp0osed to be doing when reading said data , and performs its task. this inclused how much fuel to spray and when to fire the spark plugs. when you tune an engine , you tap into its tables it uses to look up what to do with its data , and you tell it to do something different , like for turbos , spray more fuel and retard timing , so on. I-VTEC like my k20 , is 3D table , way more compicated im learning , lol. anyways , wow i typed alot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ussamah Posted December 7, 2007 Author Share Posted December 7, 2007 Thanks cranny ..but how does removing a lyer of the head make the combustion chamber smaller?? Looking back over some of the new threads recently, got another noob question cams.. im guessing performance ones work by having slightly different shape/larger lobes that keep the valves open longer?? Broadly speaking, what are the different types of cams available for a B16.. and what power gains would i be looking at?? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TS John Posted December 7, 2007 Share Posted December 7, 2007 Shaving down even a minimal amount of the place where the head sits on the block will bump up your compression because the top of the chamber will be closer to the pistons but the pistons will still be moving upwards the same amount, if you get my meaning. There are tons of cams available for B16s. Once you know what type of a build you're doing and what components are going into it I'd talk to a knowlegable tuner to choose one to complete the build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ussamah Posted December 7, 2007 Author Share Posted December 7, 2007 oh i get it now..thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ussamah Posted December 12, 2007 Author Share Posted December 12, 2007 OK..its hard finding anywhere in the UK remotely close to me who deal with japanese cars and have experience in engine rebuilding and tuning etc.. finally managed to find myself a place about a few hours drive from me... apparantly they specialise in B series...snap! anyway..i asked them how much it costs for an engine recond..they told me this: hi there 650 pounds is a pallet engine rebuild, where you drop of the engine and we rebuild it, we charge no extra to install pistons,cams,valves that you might have. the price includes re-surfacing of the head. re-sleeving is 380 pounds extra if you supply the sleeves. the remapping of the car is normally about 3 hours depending on what kind of ecu you have and is 150-350 pounds. kind regards ali ok...what does pallet rebuild mean??? does that include shave and polish etc.. is the price any good or am i being f*cked?? anything else you can enlighten me with?? thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EH6TunerDaniel Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 A pallet rebuild they are going to rebuild the motor for you, replacing gaskets, bearings, rings, and torque everything to correct specs. From what it says, it does not look like they will shave the head or polish it for you, just resurface it if need be. I have no idea if that is a good price. I deal with dollars, not pounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IVhorsemenmotorsports Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 when they make a head , its cast in a mold. because of this , there are imperfections. little pieces that hag down in the runners , sharp edges in the bends , etc. when they mild port a head , they usually remove any imperfections in the runners , they port the head about 1 1/2" into each runner , they will polish the exhaust runners real smooth. they will only semi polish the intake runners. as a little roughness is needed. when i say rough , i mean not to the touch. they will port match the runner opening to match the intake manifold and gasket. thats it. when they shave a head , they actually remove a thin layer off the entire surface of the head that meets the block. this not only makes it true again(straight) , it also makes your combustion chambers a little smaller , bumping your compression up. your oil pan is a resevoir. the sump is what picks it up out of that resevoir. when your engine is running , your oil pump is sucking it up out of the pan , pushing it through your engines oiling system , which is your crank , mains and rod bearings journals , and the head. the oil continuously recirculates. after the oil leaves where the pump is pushing it , it flows through passages using gravity to fall back into the pan , to once again be sucked up. real high performance engines use dry sump setup. meaning the oil is no longer stored in a pan o the bottom of the engine. its stored in a seperate resevoir. and its fed to the pump through lines , oils the engine , and returns back to the res again. this is better cause the crank is not spinning in it , restricting it turning , and they can run higher oil pressure. tuned , your ecu or computer that runs your engine , is programmed to react a certain way , based on the readings it gets from your sensors. its constantly reading the sensors , it gets broken down into data , the ecu sees this data as values on a table(think of a times table). so many times a second , the ecu uses the data it collects , looks up on this table to see what its supp0osed to be doing when reading said data , and performs its task. this inclused how much fuel to spray and when to fire the spark plugs. when you tune an engine , you tap into its tables it uses to look up what to do with its data , and you tell it to do something different , like for turbos , spray more fuel and retard timing , so on. I-VTEC like my k20 , is 3D table , way more compicated im learning , lol. anyways , wow i typed alot. also don't forget that by using a dry sump system the engine will have to be sealed as the pump also creates vacuum where it will remove the windage the pistons moving up and down. So now the pistons don't have to over come the pressure behind the piston. Just like using a vacuum pump. The engine runs more effcient. You can get some good gains from it. Hope I didn't confuse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IVhorsemenmotorsports Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 A pallet rebuild they are going to rebuild the motor for you, replacing gaskets, bearings, rings, and torque everything to correct specs. From what it says, it does not look like they will shave the head or polish it for you, just resurface it if need be. I have no idea if that is a good price. I deal with dollars, not pounds. how much is one pound in U.S. dollars? You need to see some of the shops work before having them do any work to your car. Ask them to provide you with a sheet of the clearances they used throughout the engine. I provide my customers a sheet with all the specs right down to the seat angle widths. Be realistic about the goals you are trying to reach with the set-up. Does idle quality matter to you? Are you limited to the type of fuels you are going to be using? Is this a daily driver? Will it stay all motor or turbo'd? If you are running like 91 octane and going all motor with your b16 200whp is not out of reach. Can you be specific on budget and what are you looking for. The farthest I have shipped a motor to was Seattle to a friend of mine. I wonder what they charge to ship parts to your area? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Matteu Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 "...pallet engine rebuild, where you drop [off] the engine and we rebuild it..." Sounds as if you will have to remove the engine yourself and strap it down on a pallet, hence "pallet...rebuild". The mapping as described equates to service after the sale. Converting the pound to dollars to see if this kid is getting a good deal does not say anything since the dollar is weak right now. You need to take the value of similar items here to establish a conversion factor. Take for instance the price a barrel of oil on the English exchange vs. NYSE. Or the price of a New USDM RSX vs. EDM RSX. Then take the conversion factor and see if he is getting a good deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ussamah Posted December 13, 2007 Author Share Posted December 13, 2007 problem is a pallet rebuild is probably out of the question for me because i dont have the expertise to take an engine out and then i have to ship it there..i really am a noob. i would rather just drive it there, dump it, and come back the next week for it. looking at some other forums, its a LOT cheaper in the US (£=2$), i guess because theres more of a market there... im not thinking of turboing it or anything like that.. really, what im thinking is simply getting all the air flow right, from induction kit all the way to the exhaust tip and maybe some performance pistons, and then get it tuned. thats probably as far as im willing to go, and considering the cost too. the reasons why i was asking about engine reconditioning is because iv got 170k miles on the clock and i dont want to spend money on an engine that may blow.. i know honda engines are generally bulletproof, and as things are it still runs like a beast (although i need a new oil pressure switch ), but i thought reconditioing the engine will mean i practically get a brand new engine.. i just didnt think it would cost that much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Matteu Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 I would venture that the best use of your money would then be to restrict your build/modifications to the intake and exhaust. Don't worry about the pistons as they only need to be altered or reinforced whilst dealing with forced induction. <<<<I work in Jacksonville, FL and the company has an office in London which we correspond with regularly; hence my apropos use of whilst.>>>> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ussamah Posted December 13, 2007 Author Share Posted December 13, 2007 very impressive! (to this day i still havnt figured it out!) so considering my mileage would you recommend me working on my civic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IVhorsemenmotorsports Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 very impressive! (to this day i still havnt figured it out!) so considering my mileage would you recommend me working on my civic? you can leak test the motor to check the condition of the seal. If it is under 5% then go for the mods. Bolt ons should get you what you are looking for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Matteu Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 I second that. Bolt-ons does not include new pistons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ussamah Posted December 15, 2007 Author Share Posted December 15, 2007 you can leak test the motor to check the condition of the seal. If it is under 5% then go for the mods. Bolt ons should get you what you are looking for how do you leak test a motor? and which seal are you talking about? thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IVhorsemenmotorsports Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 how do you leak test a motor? and which seal are you talking about? thanks you would need a cylinder leak down tester. The seal I am refering to is the piston seal and valve seal. Makes no sense to hot rod the motor that can't hold the pressure. Example, if the engine smoked a little bit (blue/purple) and you were to try to increase the power on it without fixing the problem, you will intensify the smoke issue as you are creating more pressure in the engine causing more blow by, more oil being burnt as it gets past the guides or rings. also might get a bigger oil leak. First make sure the motor is healthy before proceeding with the hop ups. Happy revving Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TS John Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 That sounds like very sensible advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatch92 Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 i second that notion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cranny Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 blow by i thought technically is when the combustion (flame+exhaust) itself , leaks past the piston/rings into the bottom end , you get blue exhaust out dipsticks , breather boxs , and pcv valves. your a smart dude horse , im glad your around and look forward to learning from you. theres a guy on k20org selling 13:1 pistons sets for 24 blocks , i wish it wasnt xmas , im so dam broke. i dont have a k24 bottom yet either but i will ;). i have a goal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatch92 Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 i'd love to see a dyno sheet with that 24 block and 13:1 comp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TS John Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 Yeah, it's like having two crannys around nowadays. That's good thing for sure. Stick around, horseman. Haha... Horseman... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IVhorsemenmotorsports Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 Yeah, it's like having two crannys around nowadays. That's good thing for sure. Stick around, horseman. Haha... Horseman... That motor would make some killer power. Advantage of the K motor is the ability to move cam timing around via Kpro and exhaust cam gear to bleed off pressure to run on pump gas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ussamah Posted December 18, 2007 Author Share Posted December 18, 2007 Thanks guys another question..are intercoolers worth looking into for NA set-up? If so, what gains am i looking at? are there any reputable brands out there? thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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