Question about IM on GSR

[CleanGSR]

I'm thinking about putting a Blox Intake Mani on the GSR but all the research I've done says that you should upgrade to a chipped P28 at the same time. The logic (and makes sense) is that since you don't have the shorter runners at lower rpms then 4400 is not the best VTEC activation point anymore. Obviously this makes sense. The problem is that I'll have to convert to OBD-1 to make a chipped P28 work on my car and that's going to cost probably around another $300 with conversion harness.

 

So, my question is, would it be bad to run my stock ecu with VTEC at 4400 or will I bog down or lose quite a bit of power at 4400? I know I'm going to get flamed for this one, but is this the one time that a VTEC Controller might be useful. If I hooked up a VTEC controller to raise my VTEC point to about 5500 or 5800 would this be the same as running a P28? Can you even hook up a VTEC controller to activate later than stock or not?

[SolLesHonda]

Yeah you can. In fact I know a lot of people who have done that.

 

Hate to keep bringing it up, but it fits just once again. My buddy's GSR hatch has gone through a couple different IM's. He actually prefers the Skunk2. Stock ECU with it, and it feels great.

[CleanGSR]

Yeah, the blox and Skunk2 are very similar, but the blox get's power just a little earlier from what I hear. Skunk2 is suppossed to be better if you're revving higher than stock. Plus the Skunk2 is quite a bit more expensive.

[SolLesHonda]

Oh. I ordered the S2 for my car yesterday.

 

Edit: Here's where I got mine.

 

http://www.istoreparts.com/skunk2-intake-m...tec-p-6408.html

 

Here's the Blox. Great price.

 

http://www.istoreparts.com/blox-intake-man...or-p-16210.html

[CleanGSR]

That first link contradicts itself. It says GSR B18C5. The GSR and B18C5 mani's don't bolt up the same. In any case, I'm sure the characteristics are different on each motor. I was comparing blox to skunk2 for the GSR motor. I've seen the blox down around the $179 range. I'll have to search around to see where I saw that. Maybe honda-tech.

[blackdelsol]

I've heard that the blox and s2 were basically identical. oh, and it should say b16/b18c5, as they use the same head. must be a typo

 

edit: wouldn't you be able to use a hondata s300 with a conversion harness?

[cranny]

the VTEC engagment point hung has more to do with the efficiency of the cam profile at that , or up to i should say , that specific point. think of it like a type R hung. type r doesnt have that stupid intake manifold. get a skunk2 and leave other crap alone. changing the VTEC point cause of an intake manifold doesnt make any sense to me.

[CleanGSR]

The type R also has a much higher VTEC point. I don't know of any cars that have the VTEC set as low as a stock GSR. If you change the amount of air that's being pumped into the engine at 4400 RPMS, then the VTEC point could need changed. It goes to the higher cam profile based on the engine getting the proper amount of air at that point and being able to add the right amount of fuel. If I'm not putting as much air in the engine at that point then the engine adding the extra fuel and engaging VTEC would cause it to run rich at that point and not run as well. I could be wrong about all that but that's what seems like would happen to me.

[cranny]

the engine will draw as much air as needed. your intake manny doesnt pump or force feed air into an engine if you get me. your engine draws it in through its intake strokes . your intake manny can restrict how much the engine gets through design. type R tegs have 6000 engagment point if im not mistaken , but redline at 8500 , thats way they bump the engagement point up. it seems usually , VTEC lasts for 2500 rpm. dont forget , your car has real time adjustment for that stuff. you have air temp sensor , map sensor , knock sensor(in VTEC case) , so on so forth , making sure your car runs proper air/fuel ratio.

 

throw a skunk2 on it dude. first thing id do if i owned a GSR , is get rid of that stupid ass intake manny, at the very least. or take the butterflys out of the secondarys , to allow freeflow through your secondaries at all times. you know how you cant really hear an intake on a GSR until VTEC kicks in , this is why.

[CleanGSR]

So a type r's redline is 500 higher but VTEC point is 1600 higher? That doesn't make any sense. The size and length of the runners on an IM greatly change when the engine gets the most air. I know it doesn't force air, but the design changes when it gets the most. Also VTEC normally lasts 2500 rpms? On a GSR it lasts for 3600 rpms. This is why I think it would be best to raise it if I switch Intake Mani's......basically for the same reason we tell people not to lower their VTEC point.

[cranny]

every GSR ive been in , VTEC kicks same as B16 , 5500. even the B17. your secondaries might open sooner , but VTEC engages at 5500. the runners length and diameter certainly has an effect. but i dont think you making the engine breathe easier is just cause for tuning or running lean. like i said , your cars sensors and ECU can accomodate a certain amount.

 

think of a dyno graph , now your engine is winding , the graph gradually goes up till you hit 5500 than if VTEC "doesnt" kick in(for arguments sake) , it will drop(or not gain as fast) after 5500 cause the cam profile is no longer efficient. now if we kick VTEC in at 4500 , your NON VTEC cam profile is still effective and your VTEC profile is too big for 4500. so on a graph , it will go up like before till 4500 , and when VTEC kicks in it will drop sharply till will you hit 5500 , than it will climb again. you know what im saying. if you were to change the engine setup to allow VTEC cam profile to be effective at a lower RPM(not too big) , than sure lower it. but in most cases , its just not the case.

 

GSR , VTEC at 5500 , redline 8000

TYPE R , VTEC at 6000 , redline at 8500.

 

PS , i love discussing with you hung , lol , i mean that in the most non gay way possible though , hahaha.

[CleanGSR]

You sir, are incorrect. I drive my car every single day and VTEC engages at 4400 RPMS and the Secondaries open up around 6000. (No I don't have them backwards). I don't know what GSR's you've been in or how long it's been, but being in one every single day, this info is undeniable. Let's not forget I used to drive a B16 that engaged at 5500 and you can definately tell the difference between the two activation points.

 

Your explanation of the dyno is exactly what I'm getting at. My VTEC currently engages at 4400 rpms. If we change the IM then it's now setup up like every other honda/acura made and would need to have the VTEC raised to match. Otherwise, I might see a drop in power between 4400 and 5500 rpms. This is my big concern. If my VTEC point was at 5500, I wouldn't have any questions.

 

To correct you briefly:

 

GSR VTEC at 4400, redline at 8000

ITR VTEC at 6000, redline at 8500

 

by the way, my fuel cutoff isn't til 8400. Every other honda I've driven is 200rpms over redline. So essentially I could get away with shifting at 8200 with the new mani since I'd be making more power up there.

[cranny]

well i dont get that to be honest. its like they are intentionally holding back the engine from the dealer. if i were you , heres what i would do hung , get yourself a good aftermarket intake manny. get yourself a VTEC controller , and set your VTEC to engage at 5500 dude with aftermarket IM. im sure the one who got the 2 mixed up since you drive one , secondaries vs VTEC , but im sure the reason they have engagment so low is directly cause of the 2 stage IM. cause its the only engine like that. aftermarket intake manny and VTEC set to engage at 5500 dude.

 

or if you got the funds , take it to a dyno with your new IM on , wherever the torque line and horsepower line touch each other on the graph(cross paths) , thats where you want VTEC to kick in. and this im sure of.

[CleanGSR]

That's what I was getting at. So do you think the VTEC controller might be a temp fix for the problem? Also will the VTEC controller override the stock settings and let me raise the point? Eventually I'll do the P28 conversion and have a guy I know (guy with the turbo LS) chip and tune it with Crome. The problem is that I don't have 500-600 to drop all at once.

[cranny]

i think a VTEC controller is the way to go for you, fuk the P28 unless you plan on running boost(if so i missed that). aftermarket IM and VTEC controller set for 5500 dude. it will feel like your ol bessy , but better , lol. VTEC controller will take the place of your ECU as far as VTEC engagment goes. VAFC(i know , i know , lol) , is prolly cheapest way you could go. and as far as what you need form the VAFC , it will work fine. there just no good for fuel managment and boost.

[blackdelsol]

every GSR ive been in , VTEC kicks same as B16 , 5500. even the B17. your secondaries might open sooner , but VTEC engages at 5500. the runners length and diameter certainly has an effect. but i dont think you making the engine breathe easier is just cause for tuning or running lean. like i said , your cars sensors and ECU can accomodate a certain amount.

 

 

 

doesn't the b17 have a b16 head? not sure, but I think the manifold bolt up. and btw, where did you get a ride in a car with a b17?

[cranny]

ill take pics tonite if he shows up guys , a 92 integra GSR , all original still , but he has ITR pistons and cams in it , hondata tuned. couple other goodies ill post when he reminds me since i forget it all , lol. nice car though , 1 pieve HL's , ITR front lip. every monday me and my boys hang out in my garage(fittingly after almost 3 years of doing this its been dubbed GARAGENITE , lol). if he shows up tonite ill get a list of his mods. good working , awsome shape car. ill get a pic too. i bug him every week to drive some boost to it , but he dont bite , lol. B17 , B16 , B18 heads are almost identical. different strokes dudes.